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Empty Child / Doctor Dances 
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26th-Jul-2005 08:01 am
tardis, tardis-any-place
I think I had better wibble on about this before the memory fades; I saw The Doctor Dances this last weekend. I actually ended up seeing both parts twice, because after I saw it on Saturday, I sat down on Sunday and watched them both back to back, because I'd actually missed the first five minutes of The Doctor Dances and was rather confused about what was going on.

Well!

I have to say that "The Empty Child" has to be one of the creepiest Whos ever. In my creep-o-meter, it ranks up there with "Seeds of Doom", and probably for the same sort of reason -- the "living death" aspect, of being turned into the alien not-self, not as transcendence, but degeneration.

"Human DNA is being rewritten by an idiot."

Seeing it the second time, it wasn't half so creepy, because I knew what was going on, and probably also because I knew it had a happy ending, so it wasn't quite so full of horror.

But I loved the happy ending. Even more, the Doctor's reaction to the happy ending: "This time, everyone lives!" Just underscoring what darkness there is in his life, that he's not ever going to take for granted days like these, where everyone lives.

"The world's not gonna end just because the Doctor dances."

This, of course, has got to be a favourite episode for those who are into Doctor/Rose 'ship. I dunno, I think they have different attitudes towards the whole thing... Rose is just the kind of person who seems to think in terms of dates and stuff. The Doctor... is trying to impress Rose, in a cocky proud way that's pure boyishness, but also mixed up with a caring that's definitely love, but it isn't necessarily eros.

Or maybe I've got blinkers on? I do find it disagreeable to ship the Doctor, as I've said before...

Even so... it was cool. Interesting also that the Doctor lost his two left feet when he changed the music -- said music which I recognised, but don't know what it is called -- but maybe that reflects the two different attitudes of Jack and the Doctor. Jack dances to a slower beat, because he dances to seduce. The Doctor grooves to the rhythm because he dances to celebrate life.

As for Captain Jack, there's some nice snark between him and the Doctor. This is good. I especially liked the whole bit about the weapons factory (and the bananas).

Also some good forethought about the tech: having a super gun which loses its oomph because the battery runs out, gives it a built-in limitation, rather than having to keep on inventing mishaps for the gizmo to prevent it being used to save the day.
Comments 
25th-Jul-2005 10:08 pm (UTC)
[info]watervole
I must admit that I've never shipped the Doctor. He is capable of intense love (particularly in this regeneration), but I don't see him as actually sleeping with Rose (or Jack for that matter).

However, I'm still trying to make my mind up about Rose and Jack as a couple. And I think they both find the Doctor attractive.

The scene with the gas mask... Shivver.
25th-Jul-2005 10:20 pm (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
I must admit that I've never shipped the Doctor. He is capable of intense love (particularly in this regeneration), but I don't see him as actually sleeping with Rose (or Jack for that matter).

Me neither. But some will.

The scene with the gas mask... Shivver.

Yes. With all the "Are you my Mummy?" stuff (double shivver)
25th-Jul-2005 11:04 pm (UTC)
[info]vilakins
I think those two eps are my favourites, for creepiness, excellent guest characters, and the totally unexpected happy ending. I'm not sure how the people regained themselves once they'd been destroyed but I was as delighted as the doctor. :-D
26th-Jul-2005 12:18 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
and the totally unexpected happy ending

Yeah, in Doctor Who, the casualties don't usually get back up again -- unlike Trek.

In Trek, everybody lives.
In Doctor Who, the Doctor and his companions live (and sometimes not even then).
In Blake's 7, everybody dies. Except in AUs.

I'm not sure how the people regained themselves once they'd been destroyed

The nanogenes fixed them up. Though that's pretty much handwaving magic, because it's all very well having the correct pattern for humanity, but people's memories aren't stored in their DNA. As I said, handwaving.

Then again, a lot of handwaving goes on in Doctor Who. I'm not so sure why I find the handwaving in Trek (treknobabble) more annoying than the handwaving in Doctor Who (reverse the polarity of the neutron flow), but I do. Maybe it's because Trek takes itself so seriously.
26th-Jul-2005 12:34 am (UTC)
[info]vilakins
I think that's a major factor. I haven't seen as much Who as most people here but I vaguely remember being scared as a kid and saw reruns of the very first Doctor (B&W!) a couple of years ago. I think it's the combination of darkness and humour that gets to me, as with B7. Trek really isn't that funny, and when it is, it signals it with tinkly music--hence my name for the inappropriately jokey scenes like the endings of Trial, CoA, and even the last line in 'City': tinkly bits.

I should add that DS9 managed to do humour really well.
26th-Jul-2005 02:30 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
I should add that DS9 managed to do humour really well.

Another thing to add to the list of reasons why DS9 is the odd one out in the Trek franchise...
25th-Jul-2005 11:37 pm (UTC)
[info]rj_anderson
Mummy?

Are you my mummy?
26th-Jul-2005 12:09 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
I take it back; it's just as creepy when you know what is going to happen -- because simply reading those bare words sent a shivver down my spine.
26th-Jul-2005 12:20 am (UTC)
[info]lady_smith
True story. I watched "Empty Child" before the london attacks, and "Doctor Dances" after.

Made the entire experience something else, lemmie tell you. The bit where he's crowing "No-one dies! Just this once, Nobody dies!!!" had me in tears, because he deserved it, we all deserved it.

I love these two episodes, so very very very much, for the same reason as everybody else: fantastic horror element, good mystery, wonderful guest character, excellent new companion, and the happy ending. The well, well, well earned happy ending.

And I seem to have the same angle on Dr/Rose as you do, which gratifies me.
26th-Jul-2005 12:33 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
The bit where he's crowing "No-one dies! Just this once, Nobody dies!!!" had me in tears, because he deserved it, we all deserved it.

Oh yeah.

And I seem to have the same angle on Dr/Rose as you do, which gratifies me.

Why, are you surrounded by Doctor/Rose shippers and feel all alone?
26th-Jul-2005 05:35 am (UTC)
[info]lady_smith
Why, are you surrounded by Doctor/Rose shippers and feel all alone?

Feels like that on occasion, but I think it's actually just that the ones I do deal with are so insistant.
26th-Jul-2005 05:59 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
They haven't seen the original series, have they?
26th-Jul-2005 03:08 pm (UTC)
[info]lady_smith
No, I don't think so.
26th-Jul-2005 01:19 am (UTC)
[info]kalypso_v
Best episodes of the run, especially "The Empty Child" - that was so good they couldn't quite match its impact second time round. I'm not into horror, but I might be if it was like that - the combination of the psychologically creepy ("Are you my mummy?") and the visually terrifying (the gasmask transformation). And probably the strongest guest character of the season in Nancy, very well played, I thought, by Florence Hoath.

I can't believe any Doctor shipping derived from canon (I can just about get my imagination to accept Cally/Ninth fanfic, but I see that as extremely exceptional circumstances). I don't think he's embarrassed by sex; I think he's perfectly comfortable with Rose and Jack fancying him, he just feels absolutely no interest in doing anything about it.
26th-Jul-2005 01:24 am (UTC) - PS
[info]kalypso_v
Actually, one person I did think stirred something very faint in him was Jabe, and she had an emotional maturity that was perhaps a little like what Cally might have offered post-Terminal. But what happened to Jabe would probably reinforce his wariness.
26th-Jul-2005 02:41 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]kerravonsen
Yeah, they were flirting a bit, weren't they? From the start -- total contrast with the intimate gift of "air from his lungs" which he gave her, with the blowing all over the Adherants of the Recurrant Meme two minutes later. But it was Jabe who really ran with it -- asking who Rose was - wife? girlfriend? concubine? (and worse with each one, lol!)

and she had an emotional maturity that was perhaps a little like what Cally might have offered post-Terminal.

Trees can live for a long time, can't they? Makes you wonder. Maybe 900 years is peanuts to a tree. And I also liked how she had that "I don't understand metal things" alienness about her.

Wah! I wish Jabe hadn't died!

Well, I'll just have to make up for it by writing Doctor/Cally. I'm a bit like you in that -- it's on the edge of what I can accept, but now that it was done so well by [info]astrogirl2 I think I'll continue on in that universe with that in mind -- I'll just have to decide whether any particular story is pre or post-"Blaze". Because in my mind, there needs to be a lot more pre-"Blaze" stories around, for me to be able to accept how the relationship could have developed gradually over time.
26th-Jul-2005 03:21 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]astrogirl2
Heck, Doctor/Cally is on the edge of what I can accept! Somehow, it did work for me in that context, though. I'm not sure why. Maybe it has a lot to do with the stuff I was saying to [info]kerravonsen below, and the fact that I didn't get any sense of a traditional "love story" about the two of them at all. In my mind, at least, I don't think romance has anything whatsoever to do with it.

And, yeah, there's clearly a lot of gaps there, and I have no idea what goes into them, but I'll be very interested to see how other people fill them.
26th-Jul-2005 04:22 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]kerravonsen
Heck, Doctor/Cally is on the edge of what I can accept! Somehow, it did work for me in that context, though.

I think there's a few factors:
- Cally and the Doctor do have this last-of-their-kind thing going, something in common, the same kind of desire to "blaze" before they die.
- Cally, like Rose, came by choice; she's not pining for home (not having a home to pine for)
- Cally isn't human, and is extraordinary in her own right
- it's implied in the first story that Cally, like Thea, has a special relationship with the TARDIS
- Cally, like Thea, would probably "take the TARDIS and go on fighting monsters"

And, yeah, there's clearly a lot of gaps there, and I have no idea what goes into them, but I'll be very interested to see how other people fill them.

I have two possible story ideas, that I'd like to do once I get my BadCliche story done.

One is "Cally and the Dalek", which is, yes, "Dalek" with Cally instead of Rose.

The other is maybe to do an adventury one where they foil the first Andromedan invasion, the one that nobody knows about, because all that is left at the end of the adventure is a derelict spaceship full of corpses and dead blobs. But I'm not sure that I'd be able to pull that off.
26th-Jul-2005 09:17 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]redstarrobot
Yes, I rather like the idea of Jabe/Nine, too. There is, as you say, that sense of a more equal footing, and that bit of alienness that keeps it from getting bogged down in cliche.

You're making me wonder if I should try my Cally/Eight AU now, although that may be even more of an acquired taste. :)
26th-Jul-2005 09:29 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]kerravonsen
Hey, you're back! Have you seen this post? Because (a) I would really like your permission to put the original Cally-and-the-Doctor story on the page I am hoping to make, and (b) your opinion on what the series/universe ought to be called.

Yes, I rather like the idea of Jabe/Nine, too. There is, as you say, that sense of a more equal footing, and that bit of alienness that keeps it from getting bogged down in cliche.

Though I also got the feeling that she's not the type to go off and leave her responsibilities. Jabe/Doctor would probably be more like a short fling...

You're making me wonder if I should try my Cally/Eight AU now, although that may be even more of an acquired taste.

I like Eight! But the dynamic would be different, I think.

But since my current obsession is Cally/Nine, I of course would like you to write more of that. With explosions, which I'm told you're good at. (grin)
26th-Jul-2005 09:37 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]redstarrobot
Having just skimmed my f'list from skip=960 to current, I'm a bit behind the times, but I'll get on it, although possibly tomorrow. :)

And you may be pleased to know that I have indeed started another Nine/Cally, with explosions. :)
26th-Jul-2005 09:39 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]kerravonsen
And you may be pleased to know that I have indeed started another Nine/Cally, with explosions.

Yay!
26th-Jul-2005 10:41 am (UTC) - Re: PS
[info]kalypso_v
I was thinking, watching "The End of the World" again on Sunday... at that point, he's known Rose for just about one Earth day (evening to evening) - they appear to travel there straight after the conclusion of the previous episode. Maybe that's one reason why Rose is a bit whiny in this one: she's short of sleep. Anyway, the Doctor may be unsure about whether she's going to hang around very long. She hesitated about coming with him, and she seems a bit thrown by the "alienness". He gets rather short with her when she gets locked in Somewhere Dangerous. So maybe he's thinking "Oh well, maybe if she's going to want to go home I might take this one instead." After all, the woman who has everything might be just as tempted as the girl who has nothing - "I can offer you one thing money can't buy..." And he could always promise to get her back for her next business meeting (if she survives).

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that his relationship with Rose, whatever it may be, is at such an early stage that there's no reason for him not to see Jabe as a potential alternative. He goes to a new place/time, he meets another female who helps him, maybe this one will join him, maybe she won't.
26th-Jul-2005 02:32 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
I think he's perfectly comfortable with Rose and Jack fancying him, he just feels absolutely no interest in doing anything about it.

Yeah, that's my impression too.
26th-Jul-2005 02:38 am (UTC)
[info]astrogirl2
The Doctor... is trying to impress Rose, in a cocky proud way that's pure boyishness, but also mixed up with a caring that's definitely love, but it isn't necessarily eros.

I pretty much agree with this. Rose does very much think in terms of dating and all the usual teenage human romantic conventions... and the Doctor just doesn't work that way. I see him as being, not above the usual human romance cliches, but just not a part of them. If he were human, it would be perfectly reasonable to read sexual tension and the possibility of a "love affair" into his relationship with Rose, but he's not, and so what they have is something different. (Which is something that, fortunately, Rose seems to realize.) I think he's quite aware that a lot of the overtones in their relationship would read as sexualized to a human observer -- it'd be hard for him not to realize it, given how people are constantly assuming they are lovers -- but I don't think he cares. It is what it is, he feels what he feels, and he doesn't worry about how he expresses it, because he trusts Rose to take it for what it is and not expect lead to something else. The Doctor doesn't seem uncomfortable with the idea of sex, and this one, at least, is perfectly willing to flirt and joke and dance and [possible spoiler deleted]. But I think, for him, things tend not to be about sex. His psychology is just a bit different from a human's, and IMHO it's a mistake to expect him to fit human expectations. This is why I've found myself unable to stomach pretty much any of the Doctor/Rose fic I've attempted to read, even though I think it could be done in a way I'd accept. It always seems to follow such traditional romantic lines -- they suddenly realize they're in luuuuurve, and then they shag! -- and I just can't see the Doctor working that way. It would have to be stranger and more complicated than that with him. Or maybe simpler than that. But definitely not anything resembling the cliche.

Um. Yeah, that's my thought on the matter, anyway. *sheepish grin*

Oh, and I found "The Empty Child" just as creepy the second time around, personally. :)
26th-Jul-2005 02:58 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
It would have to be stranger and more complicated than that with him. Or maybe simpler than that. But definitely not anything resembling the cliche.

Oh yeah. I think one reason why [info]rj_anderson's 11th Doctor stories worked; it was love, but not human love. I think it's highlighed best in this passage:

   "Actually," I replied, still a little breathless, "I'm a lot more curious about how. I'd just about convinced myself that Time Lords are asexual."
   "You wouldn't be far wrong. We are -- as long as we want to be. It's all in the mind." He tapped his temple. "Humans get an urge, then make a choice. We do it the other way around."
   "No choice, no urge?"
   "Exactly."
   "That," I said, "explains a lot."
26th-Jul-2005 03:14 am (UTC)
[info]astrogirl2
Oh yeah. I think one reason why synaesthete7's 11th Doctor stories worked;

Yes, I remember being pretty much wowed by that series, because, up until that point, Doctor/companion romance was something I would have said could never work for me. And it always impresses me when someone pulls off something I wouldn't have thought could work.

What was really interesting about that, though, is that my most major objection to the idea always was the argument that, well, he's been travelling around with companions -- some of them very attractive and whom he clearly cares for deeply -- for hundreds of years, and hasn't formed those kinds of relationships with them, so there would have to be something absolutely extraordinary to make me believe that he'd suddenly start with companion number twenty-something. And yet, I was utterly and completely sold on the idea when the companion in question responded to the Doctor's "What would you do if I died?" question with the answer that she'd take the TARDIS and go on fighting the monsters, of course. Because that's absolutely something that no companion before would have done, and it makes a huge difference. (Well, OK, maybe Romana. And, you know, Romana is the only companion I can pretty much accept pairing him up with.)

I do find it interesting, in that context, that Rose is also different from previous companions, in that she has consciously chosen to go with him and actively wants to live the life he leads. Based on that... I dunno, I maybe could see Doctor/Rose as a more romantic/sexual relationship, but I think it's one that would take many many years to develop that far. As, indeed, [info]rj_anderson's Doctor/OC relationship did.

But, yeah, I liked that touch of alien psychology in that story, and I find it quite believably consistent with how we see the Doctor behave.
26th-Jul-2005 06:03 am (UTC)
[info]mistraltoes
Ah, I hadn't read [info]rj_anderson's 11th Doctor stories, but that's very much how I'd imagined it.

Except for Five/Tegan. Which is one of what you'd call my 'strange obsessions'.
26th-Jul-2005 07:29 am (UTC)
[info]watervole
When Rose told her mother it wasn't that kind of relationship (ie sexual), she had no reason to lie. It was obvious that she and the doctor had strong feelings for one another and they'd had the chance to take them in a sexual direction if they'd so wished. Rose has never bothered about what her mother feels - didn't ask her permission to leave with the Doctor and would have felt no qualms about saying she was sleeping with him.

Jack would happily sleep with either Rose or the Doctor. I didn't care much for him at first, but the last but one episode made a convert of me. He has a fantastic sense of humour.
26th-Jul-2005 09:51 am (UTC)
[info]jhall1
I'm pretty much in agreement with everything that everyone has said. I'll just add that Richard Wilson was also very good.
26th-Jul-2005 09:56 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
Who's Richard Wilson? The boy?
26th-Jul-2005 10:06 am (UTC)
[info]jhall1
No, the doctor (with a small "d").
26th-Jul-2005 10:13 am (UTC)
[info]kerravonsen
Ah, Dr. Constantine. Yes.
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